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  • Chips and advance curves questions?

    I understand that you have the most knowledge of putting together calibration chips for one of these engines. I would like to discuss some of what you have done if you don't mind and would like to see a copy of your file that you have come up with to date. What calibration code did you start with for your application? Are you using the Chevrolet spark or have you built it to the standard spark that the IH uses with a regular distributor? In looking at the specs. of an IH distributor on this site my first inclination is that this engine is grossly undersparked.

    Originally posted by Bill usn-1


    The chip is tuned to what you are looking for. if it is trail only I might bring the timing in a little faster since all the trail runs are at low RPM. and maybe have it just a little rich. for the street and occasional dirt road I would set it up for highway cruising for the best mileage.

    HTH to explain it a little.

  • #2
    Chips?????

    Well funny you should ask,
    I was just sitting here thinking about asking you for a decent .ECU file for the 7747 and the 8746.
    generally speaking the answer to your question is YES all of the above. to list just a few: AKAL, AMUN ASDU, ACSW, ANLV, ANLU, ASDW, ASDM, ANTZ, ANLZ, ARHT, AND MAYBE 1 OR 2 OTHERS. OOPS Now some were just used for the spark tables or just trying different things like auto/man/305/350/454 just getting a feel for them. I have also found that some of the downloads off of GMECM ftp site are corupt and have you chasing your tail trying to find out what is wrong.
    The one I'm using for a base right now is the ASDW. the timing tables are anemic so I got the excel tables from custom efis and input the IH advance in and now I'm using the high avg. I just did another log run tonight and I'm going to add a little more timing in the middle, 1200-2800 from 30-80 kpa I was getting a couple of pings just off idle and a few under PE 90-100 kpa. But with the high avg spark table the old scout really came to life. I found the old IH motors don't ping alot so you can advance till they just misfire, A LOT....My fuel was a little fat in the middle also, so I don't want to push the spark till I lean it out. I may be doing a couple hundred mile road trip tomorrow so I will get a chance to log some good data. I have noticed the ASDW seems to like to drop into open loop idle which locks the iac and idles about 700 so I think I will disable the open loop till I get all the tables done.
    If you think there is a better starting place let me know. I was really trying to use the ASDU but it just kept giving me fits just off idle. it would swing wildly from a BLM of 116 to 150 all at 800rpm and 50kpa.
    I'm also dealing with several different parameters. but all are 345's with autos. 2 are 7747's and 350 inj's, 1 is a 7747 with 305 inj and a mild comp cam. I also have a holley TB to swap out so I can play with the 85lb inj's on that. My next project is my 30ft pace arrow motorhome w/454. 5mpg sucks.

    whats a good source for a VSS so I can play with highway mode???

    BTW..what is DFCO I haven't found it yet. I do most of my tuning in TC but some things just aren't there so I also use Winbin for the switches and constants, hence the need for the complete ECU files.
    Thanks,
    Bill USN-1

    COMMITED TO TEACHING PEOPLE THE "PROPER" WAY TO EFI
    HAMILTON FUEL INJECTION
    May be the answer to all your fuel injection needs!
    Learn to do it right.

    Comment


    • #3
      Bill, I thought you were using Duraspark on all your conversions. Are you using the GM ecu to control the duraspark's advance?

      Comment


      • #4
        I just looked over your dist. conv. article again. Obvious is the answer to my question. I wonder if you have a wiring diagram or even just a list or description of how you wired this up. I have a couple of nice diagrams for the durasprk setup and would be happy to re-draw one for this application.

        Also:

        NORM: disregard my other staement or the "overview" thread re: no computer controlled spark. I all for it if it can be done well with the Ford distributor.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Re: Questions!!

          Originally posted by AFI
          I understand that you have the most knowledge of putting together calibration chips for one of these engines. I would like to discuss some of what you have done if you don't mind and would like to see a copy of your file that you have come up with to date. What calibration code did you start with for your application? Are you using the Chevrolet spark or have you built it to the standard spark that the IH uses with a regular distributor? In looking at the specs. of an IH distributor on this site my first inclination is that this engine is grossly undersparked.
          I believe there is a fundamental error in the curves I generated. If I'm right on this, then I correct distributor RPM to engine RPM but failed to convert disty advance to crank advance. If this is the case, then the degrees of advance on both curves needs to be doubled. That should take care of the "grossly undertimed" condition.

          Comment


          • #6
            Curves

            The curves you generated could not be used.
            I took the factory specs and input them directly to a spead sheet that converts them to KPA from vacuum, then produces a new spark map.
            Thanks for trying tho.
            Bill USN-1

            COMMITED TO TEACHING PEOPLE THE "PROPER" WAY TO EFI
            HAMILTON FUEL INJECTION
            May be the answer to all your fuel injection needs!
            Learn to do it right.

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't fully understand that. I used the factory specs and input them into a spread sheet and did the same conversions.... well, except for the fact that I seemed to have oops on the degrees... they should be double what is shown in the curves. Explain?

              Comment


              • #8
                Spark timing

                When I first started doing the chips I input your spark map and even played with the base timing setting. I just could not get the IH to respond. So I went back to the timing tables I was working on with the spread sheet from customefis. Plugged in all the data points from the vacuum and mech advance for the v-8 IH with the most advance I could find. Then it gives a sum high/avg/low. Right now I'm using the high and adding a little here and there.
                I'll attach a graph of the base table. You can see it starts a lot higher than the regular IH.
                Attached Files
                Bill USN-1

                COMMITED TO TEACHING PEOPLE THE "PROPER" WAY TO EFI
                HAMILTON FUEL INJECTION
                May be the answer to all your fuel injection needs!
                Learn to do it right.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Chips?????

                  I have used ASDU for many files and have found the same things on occasion. The ASDU has a huge difference in the VE table at the low end that causes problems. The best overall that I have found is AMUR which I see you say AMUN. These are probably the same chip just a minor tweak for something stupid that the engineer forgot. I use ANTZ for almost all of my 8746 files. I have a great file for the ANTZ that uses the 454 throttle body for a 350 engine. I have a guy in CO who put this in his vette and it runs a ton better than his old quadrajunk. He did write back and complained about one thing. I did not lift the speed limiter of 116 mph and he needed it lifted. I did use this same file for a school system that had an International engine in one of their busses. It worked great right out of the box and solved all of their issues with the bus they were having.

                  DFCO stands for Decel Fuel Cut Out. There are only two reasons for using this. One is it controls cat temperatures on downhill runs especially if you are pulling a trailer. Under high vacuum higher RPM conditions the combustion process sets up a lot of lean misfires which then overtemps the cat. By shutting off the fuel it provides a little engine braking but mostly just keep the cat cooled down. The other thing is decel backfires. You probably do not have either problem so don't bother with it.

                  I would not bother with Highway mode. What it does is leans out the fuel by going open loop and will add some spark. The advantange is so small you will not even see it and it can cause some weird drive problems if not implemented correctly. Highway mode or managed air/fuel as the auto companies call it is now against the law for vehicles. The advantage for the auto companies was tenths of a difference in fuel economy which is huge for them, but increases NOX emissions by multitudes. I am sure that .3 mpg will not keep you from feeding your kids next week.

                  The VSS is not necessary unless you are using the TCC or an EGR valve. It does allow for better control of the idle speed when used but for the most part is not necessary. If you start to play with MPFI though you will have to use it. GM has some stupid strategy that only allows for the ECM to adapt in one cell unless the VSS is used for the vehicle. I have not found that to be the case with TBI but it is with MPFI. I buy all of my VSS from Jegs, they have the best price and screw onto the speedo cable. These are painless wire units.

                  Another hot sheet ticket is to use the Holley throttle body with the GM injectors. The Holley injectors for the most part are not always real consistent. The GM injector pod will mount right on the Holley throttle body with a minor modification. The GM injectors are very good and robust so I like to use them as much as possible. I just purchased 100 of these at a real good price to do just that. I have access to 300 more when those are gone to do the same thing.

                  I have some 454 throttle bodies and also 454 injectors that we mount on the Holley base which works real well. If and when you may be ready for one let me know and i will give you a good deal. If you want I can get you a Holley throttle body for you to do what I described and it does make a difference in response. Last year we fuel injected the snow plow truck which has a 454. We went from using 1 1/2 tanks of fuel for the snow plow route to using just about 3/4 of a tank for the same route. We had apples to apples also becuase we did it in the middle of the winter so we had the same route before and after.

                  At this point I am planning on coming to the Binder Bash I believe you guys call it this summer. I do not have a Scout, Jeep or Land Cruiser but have calls from all of these different groups. If it works out I will do a little seminar on fuel injection and you may be able to pitch in and help out with your experiences.


                  Originally posted by Bill usn-1
                  Well funny you should ask,
                  I was just sitting here thinking about asking you for a decent .ECU file for the 7747 and the 8746.
                  generally speaking the answer to your question is YES all of the above. to list just a few: AKAL, AMUN ASDU, ACSW, ANLV, ANLU, ASDW, ASDM, ANTZ, ANLZ, ARHT, AND MAYBE 1 OR 2 OTHERS. OOPS Now some were just used for the spark tables or just trying different things like auto/man/305/350/454 just getting a feel for them. I have also found that some of the downloads off of GMECM ftp site are corupt and have you chasing your tail trying to find out what is wrong.
                  The one I'm using for a base right now is the ASDW. the timing tables are anemic so I got the excel tables from custom efis and input the IH advance in and now I'm using the high avg. I just did another log run tonight and I'm going to add a little more timing in the middle, 1200-2800 from 30-80 kpa I was getting a couple of pings just off idle and a few under PE 90-100 kpa. But with the high avg spark table the old scout really came to life. I found the old IH motors don't ping alot so you can advance till they just misfire, A LOT....My fuel was a little fat in the middle also, so I don't want to push the spark till I lean it out. I may be doing a couple hundred mile road trip tomorrow so I will get a chance to log some good data. I have noticed the ASDW seems to like to drop into open loop idle which locks the iac and idles about 700 so I think I will disable the open loop till I get all the tables done.
                  If you think there is a better starting place let me know. I was really trying to use the ASDU but it just kept giving me fits just off idle. it would swing wildly from a BLM of 116 to 150 all at 800rpm and 50kpa.
                  I'm also dealing with several different parameters. but all are 345's with autos. 2 are 7747's and 350 inj's, 1 is a 7747 with 305 inj and a mild comp cam. I also have a holley TB to swap out so I can play with the 85lb inj's on that. My next project is my 30ft pace arrow motorhome w/454. 5mpg sucks.

                  whats a good source for a VSS so I can play with highway mode???

                  BTW..what is DFCO I haven't found it yet. I do most of my tuning in TC but some things just aren't there so I also use Winbin for the switches and constants, hence the need for the complete ECU files.
                  Thanks,

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Chips

                    Well I decided to give the ASDU one more try.... I took my factory chip and downloaded it. Grafted my spark table/ set the BPW and went for a drive. Worked great off idle was smooth. so I came back and started to set the #1 fuel map. Of course the Idle was rich....I stick the new chip in and guess what...rich at 70kpa I'm talking 110. so I think till I have time to play with it I am done with the ASDU. I think my next round will be with the AMUN like you said.
                    I was looking for the VSS for my street scout. Not that it is needed just something else to learn and play. I would really like to see what I can squeeze out of a 5,000 lb brick(it's red) travelling down the road!!! I am running an egr just cause it was there and I had a solenoid.

                    Do you use winbin at all? you didn't mention any ecu files.
                    I don't think the ANTZ will work with the 8746...but I understand what you mean.
                    It's the 454, 7747 chip.
                    I do have a holley TB from the last conversion I did. Replaced a holley analog system with the GM system. I think he is pleased.

                    Already pulled the pod off and was working on exactly what you said. Tried to scope the pulse width of the holley to see if I could adjust the GM PW to match the holley injectors, but after I looked at the mounting of the pod I figured my diegrinder was a lot easier.!!!!!
                    We will have to talk about a TB. Would be good for the guys with cam and headers.(or motorhomes)
                    Bill USN-1

                    COMMITED TO TEACHING PEOPLE THE "PROPER" WAY TO EFI
                    HAMILTON FUEL INJECTION
                    May be the answer to all your fuel injection needs!
                    Learn to do it right.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Chips

                      Yes I mistated myself, it is ANTS, I knew it was ANT something.

                      I have used WinBin but I use mostly CarProm which is a system produced by Arizona Speed & Marine. I still have their windows beta version and they have never upgraded it since. I use it mostly because of familiararity. I tried to use WINBIN on my XP machine and it would not run so I just did not use it anymore. It may work with XP now but I am not sure.

                      My son is a computer geek so everything we have always has the latest level of software. sometimes this is good, sometimes it isn't.
                      Originally posted by Bill usn-1
                      Well I decided to give the ASDU one more try.... I took my factory chip and downloaded it. Grafted my spark table/ set the BPW and went for a drive. Worked great off idle was smooth. so I came back and started to set the #1 fuel map. Of course the Idle was rich....I stick the new chip in and guess what...rich at 70kpa I'm talking 110. so I think till I have time to play with it I am done with the ASDU. I think my next round will be with the AMUN like you said.
                      I was looking for the VSS for my street scout. Not that it is needed just something else to learn and play. I would really like to see what I can squeeze out of a 5,000 lb brick(it's red) travelling down the road!!! I am running an egr just cause it was there and I had a solenoid.

                      Do you use winbin at all? you didn't mention any ecu files.
                      I don't think the ANTZ will work with the 8746...but I understand what you mean.
                      It's the 454, 7747 chip.
                      I do have a holley TB from the last conversion I did. Replaced a holley analog system with the GM system. I think he is pleased.

                      Already pulled the pod off and was working on exactly what you said. Tried to scope the pulse width of the holley to see if I could adjust the GM PW to match the holley injectors, but after I looked at the mounting of the pod I figured my diegrinder was a lot easier.!!!!!
                      We will have to talk about a TB. Would be good for the guys with cam and headers.(or motorhomes)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        XP

                        I run winbin and Tunercat on XP. they both do fine.
                        Came in from work today and burned an AMUR with the IH spark curve. Ran real good. Really lean at idle but close every where else. Thanks for the tip. It was closer than the AMUN.

                        I end up using winbin after TC cause I can't even find the diverter valve setting on TC. I hate flags being on.

                        Thanks
                        Bill USN-1

                        COMMITED TO TEACHING PEOPLE THE "PROPER" WAY TO EFI
                        HAMILTON FUEL INJECTION
                        May be the answer to all your fuel injection needs!
                        Learn to do it right.

                        Comment

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